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	<title>Comments for Historia Salutis</title>
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	<link>http://historiasalutis.com</link>
	<description>Resources about biblical theology and its relation to the theological encyclopedia.</description>
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		<title>Comment on Reformed Forum States of America by Jorge Bessa</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2012/02/03/reformed-forum-states-of-america/comment-page-1/#comment-7101</link>
		<dc:creator>Jorge Bessa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 22:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=617#comment-7101</guid>
		<description>Camden, what about Countries? Did you look at these numbers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camden, what about Countries? Did you look at these numbers?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Kevin DeYoung and the Evening Service by David Cornette</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2012/02/02/kevin-deyoung-and-the-evening-service/comment-page-1/#comment-7100</link>
		<dc:creator>David Cornette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 07:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=614#comment-7100</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t know if your case for evening worship was compelling. If I may speak for the &quot;everyone&quot; you mentioned (and I&#039;m certain you already know this), I don&#039;t think it&#039;s so much that people wish to regard the AM service as mandatory but not the PM; rather, everyone acknowledges we ARE called to gather for worship. Once we have done so, we have fulfilled the Law requiring a holy convocation. It is the number of gatherings that is disputed. The Law does not mandate multiple convocations; we have added the 2nd service to assist people in keeping the Sabbath holy. BUT, precisely because Scripture does not mandate multiple gatherings, I think it is difficult to mandate more, on the wisdom and liberty of the local Session. Once the term liberty is brought into the picture, I wrestle with the notion that the elders have the liberty to MANDATE additional services at one church, which that congregation must heed, but the Session of yet another congregation has the liberty of saying, &quot;Nah! Not here.&quot;

IN OTHER WORDS, If left to LIBERTY and wisdom, how can it be mandated? Maybe I missed your point here. I guess it just seems strange to argue that it CAN be required of certain congregations and not others.

It is has the feel of the old, Independent Baptists, who always said, &quot;Be there when the doors are open!&quot; I don&#039;t know, perhaps on that count, they were right!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t know if your case for evening worship was compelling. If I may speak for the &#8220;everyone&#8221; you mentioned (and I&#8217;m certain you already know this), I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s so much that people wish to regard the AM service as mandatory but not the PM; rather, everyone acknowledges we ARE called to gather for worship. Once we have done so, we have fulfilled the Law requiring a holy convocation. It is the number of gatherings that is disputed. The Law does not mandate multiple convocations; we have added the 2nd service to assist people in keeping the Sabbath holy. BUT, precisely because Scripture does not mandate multiple gatherings, I think it is difficult to mandate more, on the wisdom and liberty of the local Session. Once the term liberty is brought into the picture, I wrestle with the notion that the elders have the liberty to MANDATE additional services at one church, which that congregation must heed, but the Session of yet another congregation has the liberty of saying, &#8220;Nah! Not here.&#8221;</p>
<p>IN OTHER WORDS, If left to LIBERTY and wisdom, how can it be mandated? Maybe I missed your point here. I guess it just seems strange to argue that it CAN be required of certain congregations and not others.</p>
<p>It is has the feel of the old, Independent Baptists, who always said, &#8220;Be there when the doors are open!&#8221; I don&#8217;t know, perhaps on that count, they were right!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Reformed Forum Book Club by Micael</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2012/01/17/reformed-forum-book-club/comment-page-1/#comment-7098</link>
		<dc:creator>Micael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=601#comment-7098</guid>
		<description>I am looking foward to this. Thanks!

Michael</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am looking foward to this. Thanks!</p>
<p>Michael</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clarifying Soteriological Categories by Adam K</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2011/12/20/clarifying-soteriological-categories/comment-page-1/#comment-7097</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=586#comment-7097</guid>
		<description>David: From one non-expert to another, thank you for your insights!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David: From one non-expert to another, thank you for your insights!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clarifying Soteriological Categories by David</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2011/12/20/clarifying-soteriological-categories/comment-page-1/#comment-7096</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 08:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=586#comment-7096</guid>
		<description>You say:

&quot;Therefore, we see a two-fold aspect to the single event of the atonement—just as there is a two-fold aspect to the problem of sin (guilt and corruption) ...&quot;

Though I&#039;m no doubt talking to myself at this point, I would point out that the atonement does &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; than free us from the guilt and corruption of sin. It also merits the heavenly inheritance, which is an additional forensic aspect. So even granting that sin has a two-fold profile of guilt and corruption (which I&#039;m happy to do), and that therefore the atonement must obtain for us a two-fold deliverance (which I also have no problem with), it still seems that we need to reckon with what the atonement does &lt;i&gt;beyond&lt;/i&gt; freeing us from the guilt and corruption of sin, namely its meriting of the heavenly inheritance. Hence, even granting the two-fold profile of both sin and our deliverance from it in the &lt;i&gt;historia salutis&lt;/i&gt;, the atonement is still weighted more heavily in the direction of the forensic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say:</p>
<p>&#8220;Therefore, we see a two-fold aspect to the single event of the atonement—just as there is a two-fold aspect to the problem of sin (guilt and corruption) &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Though I&#8217;m no doubt talking to myself at this point, I would point out that the atonement does <i>more</i> than free us from the guilt and corruption of sin. It also merits the heavenly inheritance, which is an additional forensic aspect. So even granting that sin has a two-fold profile of guilt and corruption (which I&#8217;m happy to do), and that therefore the atonement must obtain for us a two-fold deliverance (which I also have no problem with), it still seems that we need to reckon with what the atonement does <i>beyond</i> freeing us from the guilt and corruption of sin, namely its meriting of the heavenly inheritance. Hence, even granting the two-fold profile of both sin and our deliverance from it in the <i>historia salutis</i>, the atonement is still weighted more heavily in the direction of the forensic.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clarifying Soteriological Categories by David</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2011/12/20/clarifying-soteriological-categories/comment-page-1/#comment-7095</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 00:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=586#comment-7095</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m currently scouring thorough Walter Marshall&#039;s &lt;i&gt;The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification&lt;/i&gt; to see if he posits the notion of a renovative component to the atonement. And it appears that he does, for example here, in chapter three:

&lt;blockquote&gt;By His death, [Christ] freed Himself from the guilt of our sins imputed to Him, and from all that innocent weakness of His human nature which He had borne for a time for our sakes. And, by freeing Himself, He prepared a freedom for us, from our whole natural condition, which is both weak as He was, and also polluted without guilt and sinful corruption. Thus the corrupt natural estate, which is called in Scripture the old man, was crucified together with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed. And it is destroyed in us, not by any wounds that we ourselves can give to it, but by our partaking of that freedom from it, and death to it, that is already wrought out for us by the death of Christ; as is signified by our baptism, in which we are buried with Christ by the application of His death to us (Rom. 6:2-4, 10, 11). &#039;God, in sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to be a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous demand of the law should be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit&#039; (Rom. 8:3, 4). Observe here that, though Christ died that we might be justified by the righteousness of God and of faith, not by our own righteousness, which is of the law (Rom. 10:4-6; Phil. 3:9), yet He died also, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, and that by walking after His Spirit, as those that are in Christ (Rom. 8:4). He is resembled in His death to a corn of wheat dying in the earth, that it may propagate its own nature, by bringing forth much fruit (John 12:24); to the Passover that was slain, that a feast might be kept on it; and to bread broken, that it may be nourishment to those that eat it (1 Cor. 5:7, 8; 11:24); to the rock smitten, that water may gush out of it for us to drink (1 Cor. 10:4). He died that He might make of Jew and Gentile one new man in Himself (Eph. 2:15 ), and that He might see His seed, that is, such as derive their holy nature from Him (Isa. 53:10). Let these Scriptures be well observed, and they will sufficiently evidence that Christ died, not that we might be able to form a holy nature in ourselves, but that we might receive one ready prepared and formed in Christ for us, by union and fellowship with Him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently scouring thorough Walter Marshall&#8217;s <i>The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification</i> to see if he posits the notion of a renovative component to the atonement. And it appears that he does, for example here, in chapter three:</p>
<blockquote><p>By His death, [Christ] freed Himself from the guilt of our sins imputed to Him, and from all that innocent weakness of His human nature which He had borne for a time for our sakes. And, by freeing Himself, He prepared a freedom for us, from our whole natural condition, which is both weak as He was, and also polluted without guilt and sinful corruption. Thus the corrupt natural estate, which is called in Scripture the old man, was crucified together with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed. And it is destroyed in us, not by any wounds that we ourselves can give to it, but by our partaking of that freedom from it, and death to it, that is already wrought out for us by the death of Christ; as is signified by our baptism, in which we are buried with Christ by the application of His death to us (Rom. 6:2-4, 10, 11). &#8216;God, in sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to be a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous demand of the law should be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit&#8217; (Rom. 8:3, 4). Observe here that, though Christ died that we might be justified by the righteousness of God and of faith, not by our own righteousness, which is of the law (Rom. 10:4-6; Phil. 3:9), yet He died also, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, and that by walking after His Spirit, as those that are in Christ (Rom. 8:4). He is resembled in His death to a corn of wheat dying in the earth, that it may propagate its own nature, by bringing forth much fruit (John 12:24); to the Passover that was slain, that a feast might be kept on it; and to bread broken, that it may be nourishment to those that eat it (1 Cor. 5:7, 8; 11:24); to the rock smitten, that water may gush out of it for us to drink (1 Cor. 10:4). He died that He might make of Jew and Gentile one new man in Himself (Eph. 2:15 ), and that He might see His seed, that is, such as derive their holy nature from Him (Isa. 53:10). Let these Scriptures be well observed, and they will sufficiently evidence that Christ died, not that we might be able to form a holy nature in ourselves, but that we might receive one ready prepared and formed in Christ for us, by union and fellowship with Him.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>Comment on Clarifying Soteriological Categories by David</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2011/12/20/clarifying-soteriological-categories/comment-page-1/#comment-7094</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=586#comment-7094</guid>
		<description>Jonathan,

I hear you and I appreciate the continued interaction. I&#039;ll continue to ponder the evidence you cited in the WLC. I don&#039;t really have the time to scour the theologians either ... though often I find myself doing it anyway, no doubt sometimes at the expense of other stuff I ought to be doing. 

How would you answer the question I posed with the Flavel quote? Is it improper to speak in terms of Christ meriting the entirety of our salvation, including our sanctification?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan,</p>
<p>I hear you and I appreciate the continued interaction. I&#8217;ll continue to ponder the evidence you cited in the WLC. I don&#8217;t really have the time to scour the theologians either &#8230; though often I find myself doing it anyway, no doubt sometimes at the expense of other stuff I ought to be doing. </p>
<p>How would you answer the question I posed with the Flavel quote? Is it improper to speak in terms of Christ meriting the entirety of our salvation, including our sanctification?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clarifying Soteriological Categories by Carlos</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2011/12/20/clarifying-soteriological-categories/comment-page-1/#comment-7093</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=586#comment-7093</guid>
		<description>Ok, David, you&#039;ve proved your point. Congrats!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, David, you&#8217;ve proved your point. Congrats!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clarifying Soteriological Categories by Jonathan Bonomo</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2011/12/20/clarifying-soteriological-categories/comment-page-1/#comment-7092</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Bonomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=586#comment-7092</guid>
		<description>David,

Understood.  But the point&#039;s that it is there.  The demand was for *any* evidence.  I provided it.  So it&#039;d be nice to have it be at least acknowledged that such elements are present in the Reformed tradition, even if not over-abundantly.  More citations from private authors could be multiplied (there&#039;s much in Calvin and other 16th c. Reformed).  I just brought the WLC quotes to the table because, of course, confessional documents hold most weight, and also because, as a pastor and church planter, I don&#039;t have the time that&#039;d be necessary to go scouring through Calvin, Bucer, Vermigli, Zanchi, et al, for the relevant quotes.  I did, however, give one from Calvin above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>Understood.  But the point&#8217;s that it is there.  The demand was for *any* evidence.  I provided it.  So it&#8217;d be nice to have it be at least acknowledged that such elements are present in the Reformed tradition, even if not over-abundantly.  More citations from private authors could be multiplied (there&#8217;s much in Calvin and other 16th c. Reformed).  I just brought the WLC quotes to the table because, of course, confessional documents hold most weight, and also because, as a pastor and church planter, I don&#8217;t have the time that&#8217;d be necessary to go scouring through Calvin, Bucer, Vermigli, Zanchi, et al, for the relevant quotes.  I did, however, give one from Calvin above.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clarifying Soteriological Categories by David</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2011/12/20/clarifying-soteriological-categories/comment-page-1/#comment-7091</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://historiasalutis.com/?p=586#comment-7091</guid>
		<description>Oops. That sentence directly under the first quote should read:

&quot;It is impossible to read that and reasonably come away with any other conclusion than that Vos, at least when he wrote The Alleged Legalism, was convinced that the doctrine of justification was &#039;the center of Paul’s teaching.&#039;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops. That sentence directly under the first quote should read:</p>
<p>&#8220;It is impossible to read that and reasonably come away with any other conclusion than that Vos, at least when he wrote The Alleged Legalism, was convinced that the doctrine of justification was &#8216;the center of Paul’s teaching.&#8217;&#8221;</p>
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