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	<title>Comments on: Isn&#8217;t Definitive Sanctification Simply Regeneration?</title>
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		<title>By: Clifton Burton</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-2657</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifton Burton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brethren, this whole discussion as to whether definitive sanctification is synonymous with regeneration, or one aspect of it seems to be misguided. It all depends upon how each one defines these terms, and how each one defines the words used to define the terms. Go back to Scripture! Let your discussion be based on the text, and not on theological terminology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brethren, this whole discussion as to whether definitive sanctification is synonymous with regeneration, or one aspect of it seems to be misguided. It all depends upon how each one defines these terms, and how each one defines the words used to define the terms. Go back to Scripture! Let your discussion be based on the text, and not on theological terminology.</p>
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		<title>By: dgh</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-546</link>
		<dc:creator>dgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Camden, btw, we may be both guilty of exegetical fallacies here, but if Murray was right that Rom. 6:7 should be interpreted &quot;For he who has died has been justified from sin,&quot; then the definitive break with sin comes not from sanctification but from justification.  At least, this is an argument I have heard John Fesko make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camden, btw, we may be both guilty of exegetical fallacies here, but if Murray was right that Rom. 6:7 should be interpreted &#8220;For he who has died has been justified from sin,&#8221; then the definitive break with sin comes not from sanctification but from justification.  At least, this is an argument I have heard John Fesko make.</p>
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		<title>By: dgh</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-545</link>
		<dc:creator>dgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiasalutis.com/?p=204#comment-545</guid>
		<description>Camden, I&#039;m not sure that 1 Cor. 1:2, or that any single verse, qualifies for rewriting the doctrine of regeneration.  My Greek isn&#039;t merely rusty, but has been repossessed.  So I can&#039;t go toe to toe exegetically. But I don&#039;t see the need for positing definitive sanctification.  And even though you deny that it is prior to justification, it is somewhere in the ballpark of regeneration which does precede faith (in some ordo schemes) and so does precede justification.  Regeneration seems like a much more helpful term to avoid the problem I mention above.

And on a related note, I continue to puzzle over the insistence of no priority of the benefits coming from union.  The Reformed tradition has had no problem asserting the logical priority of justification precisely because of debates with Rome over the nature salvation&#039;s righteousness.  Imputed over infused.  That is why you don&#039;t mind justification prior to &quot;progressive&quot; sanctification.  So the assertion of def. sanct. seems to me to be a way to deny the centrality of justification and to put just. and sanct. on an even playing field, and so avoid antinomianism.  Whether intended or not, it seems like a way to make room for Shepherd&#039;s initial concerns.  I am not saying that this is what you are doing directly.  I am only talking about implications, not to mention the context of the last 30 years, or the debt that Shepherd owed to Murray.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camden, I&#8217;m not sure that 1 Cor. 1:2, or that any single verse, qualifies for rewriting the doctrine of regeneration.  My Greek isn&#8217;t merely rusty, but has been repossessed.  So I can&#8217;t go toe to toe exegetically. But I don&#8217;t see the need for positing definitive sanctification.  And even though you deny that it is prior to justification, it is somewhere in the ballpark of regeneration which does precede faith (in some ordo schemes) and so does precede justification.  Regeneration seems like a much more helpful term to avoid the problem I mention above.</p>
<p>And on a related note, I continue to puzzle over the insistence of no priority of the benefits coming from union.  The Reformed tradition has had no problem asserting the logical priority of justification precisely because of debates with Rome over the nature salvation&#8217;s righteousness.  Imputed over infused.  That is why you don&#8217;t mind justification prior to &#8220;progressive&#8221; sanctification.  So the assertion of def. sanct. seems to me to be a way to deny the centrality of justification and to put just. and sanct. on an even playing field, and so avoid antinomianism.  Whether intended or not, it seems like a way to make room for Shepherd&#8217;s initial concerns.  I am not saying that this is what you are doing directly.  I am only talking about implications, not to mention the context of the last 30 years, or the debt that Shepherd owed to Murray.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-542</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 22:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Is this a Presbyterian problem of some kind? How can anyone collapse what happens to our will with what is done with and by our will?
A little confused on how this could possibly get started.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this a Presbyterian problem of some kind? How can anyone collapse what happens to our will with what is done with and by our will?<br />
A little confused on how this could possibly get started.</p>
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		<title>By: Camden Bucey</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-539</link>
		<dc:creator>Camden Bucey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I understand your schedule.  Let me begin by saying if there is any confusion on behalf of the readers of this post, my answer to the question in the title is &quot;No.&quot;  The point I&#039;m making is that definitive sanctification is &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; before justification.  It&#039;s a benefit of vital faith-union with Christ that happens simultaneously without temporal or logical priority with respect to justification or adoption.  This quotation nor anything I&#039;ve written has ever said definitive sanctification comes before justification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your schedule.  Let me begin by saying if there is any confusion on behalf of the readers of this post, my answer to the question in the title is &#8220;No.&#8221;  The point I&#8217;m making is that definitive sanctification is <em>not</em> before justification.  It&#8217;s a benefit of vital faith-union with Christ that happens simultaneously without temporal or logical priority with respect to justification or adoption.  This quotation nor anything I&#8217;ve written has ever said definitive sanctification comes before justification.</p>
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		<title>By: dgh</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-538</link>
		<dc:creator>dgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiasalutis.com/?p=204#comment-538</guid>
		<description>Camden, I&#039;m busy with lots of stuff so I need to think more about sanctify as Paul uses it, but if you put definitive sanctification before justification then you raise the question of whether we are justified because of implicit in infused righteousness.  I believe Gaffin conceded this problem in one of his articles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camden, I&#8217;m busy with lots of stuff so I need to think more about sanctify as Paul uses it, but if you put definitive sanctification before justification then you raise the question of whether we are justified because of implicit in infused righteousness.  I believe Gaffin conceded this problem in one of his articles.</p>
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		<title>By: Camden Bucey</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-532</link>
		<dc:creator>Camden Bucey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiasalutis.com/?p=204#comment-532</guid>
		<description>Darryl, thanks for the comment and the concern.  Let me begin by saying for however excellent Strunk and White were at writing, they were not systematic theologians.  But neither is this to present myself as much of either.  My point in the Occamâ€™s Razor analogy is that the term definitive sanctification is indeed needed.  We must all strive for theological precision especially in matters such as these.  In my opinion, to eliminate the term is to introduce ambiguity.

I am finding a strange trend lately.  It seems those who have issues with Murray tend to equate sanctification with doing good works.  Surely doing good works is a necessary result of the sanctification process, but in large scope, sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ to the believer.  It is a renovative aspect of Godâ€™s entire salvation that conforms the believer into the image of Christ.  There is surely a synergistic element to sanctification, but in this quotation, Murray is speaking of the initial breach of the power of sin, that is, the death to sin that occurs upon vital faith union with Christ.

I believe we must use the term â€œdefinitive sanctificationâ€ because the Bible uses the word &quot;sanctification&quot; when referring to union with Christ in the specific aspect of death to sin.  But Scripture also uses the term to refer to the progressive element of sanctification; hence the introduction of the modifier â€œdefinitive.â€  I am interested to hear how you would explain the sanctification of 1 Cor 1:2.  &quot;Sanctified&quot; is a perfect passive participle â€“ a completed event that has present effects.  Members of the Corinthian church had been sanctified in Christ Jesus, yet they still sinned. 

To say that definitive sanctification is identical with effectual calling or regeneration is imprecise and leads to ambiguity.  As any reader of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.oldlife.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;oldlife.org&lt;/a&gt; should know, you do not want to introduce ambiguity regarding the differences between justification and sanctification.  Why blur the distinctions between each renovative salvific activity?  What advantage is that to us?  It only serves to confuse as I fear equating â€œsanctificationâ€ with â€œdoing good worksâ€ does.

Frankly, I struggle to understand how your final sentence relates to the Murray quotation.  How does a doctrine of definitive sanctification necessitate that justification hinges upon good works?  Believers are united to Christ through the Spirit.  When this union occurs, believers receive all the benefits of Christ.  In no logical or causal order, the Spirit breaks the power of sin in his life, the Spirit imputes the righteousness of Christ to him which is the sole ground of justification, and he is adopted as a son.  Do you fear that rooting these salvific benefits directly in union with Christ makes justification hinge on adoption?  Why wouldnâ€™t sanctification hinge upon justification for that matter?  All the benefits hinge upon the person and work of Christ and the activity of the Spirit in uniting us to that Savior and flow out of union with him directly.

To preemptively comment, I hold to a logical priority of justification over &lt;em&gt;progressive&lt;/em&gt; sanctification as any orthodox theologian would.  As always, thank you for the interaction.  We should never tire of speaking of the gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darryl, thanks for the comment and the concern.  Let me begin by saying for however excellent Strunk and White were at writing, they were not systematic theologians.  But neither is this to present myself as much of either.  My point in the Occamâ€™s Razor analogy is that the term definitive sanctification is indeed needed.  We must all strive for theological precision especially in matters such as these.  In my opinion, to eliminate the term is to introduce ambiguity.</p>
<p>I am finding a strange trend lately.  It seems those who have issues with Murray tend to equate sanctification with doing good works.  Surely doing good works is a necessary result of the sanctification process, but in large scope, sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ to the believer.  It is a renovative aspect of Godâ€™s entire salvation that conforms the believer into the image of Christ.  There is surely a synergistic element to sanctification, but in this quotation, Murray is speaking of the initial breach of the power of sin, that is, the death to sin that occurs upon vital faith union with Christ.</p>
<p>I believe we must use the term â€œdefinitive sanctificationâ€ because the Bible uses the word &#8220;sanctification&#8221; when referring to union with Christ in the specific aspect of death to sin.  But Scripture also uses the term to refer to the progressive element of sanctification; hence the introduction of the modifier â€œdefinitive.â€  I am interested to hear how you would explain the sanctification of 1 Cor 1:2.  &#8220;Sanctified&#8221; is a perfect passive participle â€“ a completed event that has present effects.  Members of the Corinthian church had been sanctified in Christ Jesus, yet they still sinned. </p>
<p>To say that definitive sanctification is identical with effectual calling or regeneration is imprecise and leads to ambiguity.  As any reader of <a href="http://www.oldlife.org/" rel="nofollow">oldlife.org</a> should know, you do not want to introduce ambiguity regarding the differences between justification and sanctification.  Why blur the distinctions between each renovative salvific activity?  What advantage is that to us?  It only serves to confuse as I fear equating â€œsanctificationâ€ with â€œdoing good worksâ€ does.</p>
<p>Frankly, I struggle to understand how your final sentence relates to the Murray quotation.  How does a doctrine of definitive sanctification necessitate that justification hinges upon good works?  Believers are united to Christ through the Spirit.  When this union occurs, believers receive all the benefits of Christ.  In no logical or causal order, the Spirit breaks the power of sin in his life, the Spirit imputes the righteousness of Christ to him which is the sole ground of justification, and he is adopted as a son.  Do you fear that rooting these salvific benefits directly in union with Christ makes justification hinge on adoption?  Why wouldnâ€™t sanctification hinge upon justification for that matter?  All the benefits hinge upon the person and work of Christ and the activity of the Spirit in uniting us to that Savior and flow out of union with him directly.</p>
<p>To preemptively comment, I hold to a logical priority of justification over <em>progressive</em> sanctification as any orthodox theologian would.  As always, thank you for the interaction.  We should never tire of speaking of the gospel.</p>
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		<title>By: dgh</title>
		<link>http://historiasalutis.com/2010/01/19/isnt-definitive-sanctification-simply-regeneration/comment-page-1/#comment-530</link>
		<dc:creator>dgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Camden, but if we already have good words like regeneration and effectual calling, why add another concept?  Strunk and White would disapprove.  Not to mention the theological problem of making justification hinge upon sanctification, which was what the Reformation found troubling about Rome&#039;s views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camden, but if we already have good words like regeneration and effectual calling, why add another concept?  Strunk and White would disapprove.  Not to mention the theological problem of making justification hinge upon sanctification, which was what the Reformation found troubling about Rome&#8217;s views.</p>
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